Sami Kinnison (00:00)
Welcome everyone to this week’s episode of the podcast. I’m one of your hosts, Sami Kinison, a communication coach who helps you say what’s on your heart out loud.

Angela Belford (00:09)
My name is Angela Belford. I’m your co-host and I am an executive coach and I really help people go after what they want. I think people try to go for a goal and they can’t figure out what’s holding them back. That’s a perfect time to hire me as your coach.

Sami Kinnison (00:28)
Today we are gonna be sort of expanding on the conversation that we had last week, but with a new frame of mind. Our last episode, if you haven’t listened, you might pause and go check it out. It is about how do you navigate sort of the discomfort of when you outgrow maybe the people around you as you continue to grow and move forward, and how do you navigate that tension that can come with growth? Today we’re talking a little bit about.

The relationships around you and when you need someone to grow or to s to step up, if you will. And how do you handle that? And you can already tell from the my tone of voice that it’s like a sticky conversation, I think, of just like, ooh, what do you do when in a marriage or in a really close business partnership or in a friendship? When it’s like, no, these are the things that that I really need in this relationship. And how do I figure out how to navigate that?

that middle time bef between a need has been identified and the need has been fulfilled. Does that feel right, Angela? How would you add clarity to this?

Angela Belford (01:37)
Yeah. I golly, there’s so many different opportunities, but I can remember there was one moment in time where I looked at my husband and I said, I have healed and grown as much as I can inside of this marriage. You have blamed me for 10 years and said it was all my fault, all of my background, all of my bad childhood, all of my everything. I have healed as far as I can heal within this context. It’s your turn to heal.

And if you’re not interested, if you’re happy where you are, that is your choice. You get to decide if this is if you’re satisfied where you are. I just want you to know that that means you’re gonna have to explain to our children how much you loved your their mom and our marriage still didn’t survive. Because I can’t grow anymore inside of this. And it took a few months of him going, what the crap do I do with that information?

And I was pretty checked out during that time frame. And and I I just he didn’t want to be on his journey. He was just like, I’m perfect, I’m fine, I’m amazing. What is your problem? Look at he would love to tell me all of my friends whose dysfunctional husbands how much better he was than them. I’m like, I didn’t marry any of them. And it took a few months and he finally one day woke up and it was a little bit of a story. It’s not my story, but I was there. he

of had an o a moment where he was like, Nope, something has to change. And I was like, and I remember that in the we had fought all night long, which was weird. It was a weird phen phenomenon. I would fall asleep and I would wake up and he would still be awake and as soon as I woke up, he would start talking again. So we literally fought like all night long. And then he says, I don’t even know why you would want to be my friend. I don’t know why anybody would want to be my friend. I just missed my mom.

And I realized it was like his mom’s birthday that day. And and he started crying and he started therapy. And I was like, I can live with broken. I can, I can actually, I can stri I can hang on a little while longer because now you are choosing to be on your journey. And I would have loved for it to have been fast and easy. So today we’re gonna talk about that time frame between

when he said, Wow, I actually do need something to change. so there’s some there’s some moments and times.

Sami Kinnison (04:10)
I’ve got lots of questions and different things.

I think, sort of throughout this episode, we might end up unpacking bits and pieces of this particular personal story from your side. And let’s let’s go back and forth, okay? It feels like

Angela Belford (04:25)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

Sami Kinnison (04:26)
a heavy thing. Also, as your daughter, I in my head am trying to like, what year was this? Like, when like trying to track the things. because this is super, I think one of the

Fun quote.

Angela Belford (04:41)
If I’d say sales tax

weekend for you, would that help you?

Sami Kinnison (04:45)
Yes, it does. because I had a moment that weekend

that I have had to heal from I don’t mind sharing actually. Like I feel like people can whatever. we I was in a going back to college time. I had been we were back to school shopping, which was because Sami was kind of I my snotty teenage years were my late teenage years rather than my early teenage years.

And I was like, I went away for college. even though it’s only 12 minutes away, I’m never seeing my family. And so my parents basically had to bribe me to spend time with them. They’re like, I’ll buy you school supplies, come with us, come hang out with us. I was like, I guess I’ll deign to spend time with you. we’re back to school shopping, and my mom starts trying to tell me the story. She was like, I had this race. I was running. I can’t even remember the details of the story. And I was and was like, Yes, dad told me part of this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That that

What happened next? And it was like, nope, never mind. If I if you’ve already heard the story, then then that’s it. And then later it was like, I heard from my siblings. Mom and Dad haven’t talked in a long while. And I was like, it’s because of me. I am the reason. Like I had that one moment where I should have just kept my mouth shut. And then I as a kid had to recognize as an adult, really, not even as a kid, even if you are a part of somebody else’s like big

moment and stor like I was not the reason that you guys didn’t talk for months.

Angela Belford (06:14)
No, because I had

specifically told him we see Sami so infrequently. You tell your stories, I will tell my stories. That was why it was such a big deal, is because whenever I took you to coffee, I wanted to tell my stories. And

Sami Kinnison (06:26)
Right.

Angela Belford (06:26)
and so I was like, Barry, you can tell every story of everything you have done and felt and heard. And the story he told was not of something I had done, but of something I had felt and realized. And it was like, whoa.

I just had this realization and

Sami Kinnison (06:43)
Right.

Angela Belford (06:44)
he it was the next day. I didn’t even get one whole day to get an opportunity to tell you and he had already told you the story and I was like, We’re done now. But sorry.

Sami Kinnison (06:54)
I also think sometimes that we have we now this is

like a very sensitive family thing to like not tell each other’s stories and we’ll have to be like he might tell a story now to be like your mom and I went to Eureka Springs and we both did this, but I this was my experience. Like I went to the

Angela Belford (07:08)
Ha ha.

Sami Kinnison (07:09)
restaurant and I ate this food and the food was delicious. And and we but I mean it’s more your mom talking, but like I had talked too, like I wasn’t telling her story, like I’m telling what I did and

Angela Belford (07:19)
And this

is like ten years ago or thirteen years ago. It’s a long time. Yeah.

Sami Kinnison (07:21)
But it is really funny the way that like he’s like, No,

no, I’m telling what I did and but you will have been there because

Angela Belford (07:27)
are literally we have a family

nervous system response to this telling somebody else’s story. I will even caveat and say, if they tell you, let them tell you their version of the story. Which I think is also generous, to

Sami Kinnison (07:38)
Yes, and it is.

Angela Belford (07:40)
allow somebody else to tell the version of the story because my person it’s like reading a book that is told telling the same story from two or three different characters’ perspectives. Like let them

Sami Kinnison (07:50)
For sure.

Angela Belford (07:50)
tell their story. So there’s a lesson. Here’s what’s funny is that I do want to tell like four months later

I was I was a terrible human in those four months because I was I I I was done. I had ended this relationship. this fight was about five weeks after that weekend, that sales tax weekend, and I was done. And so I didn’t want to hear about his therapy, I didn’t want to hear about his growth, I didn’t want to hear about anything. I was a terrible human during that time. because I was frustrated. Why did you wait till I was all the way done?

And but here’s the thing, is that four months later I

Sami Kinnison (08:26)
I was like, can you not

say you were a terrible human? You behaved maybe in terrible ways. Just fine.

Angela Belford (08:31)
Okay. During

the during that four month period I’m not proud of how I how I I I it is not I was not the best version of myself.

Sami Kinnison (08:41)
If we practice making sure that we’re not making our identity statements.

Angela Belford (08:43)
Sure, sure, sure. I was not the best

version of myself during those four months because I was at the end of my rope. I was frustrated. I

Sami Kinnison (08:50)
Yeah.

Angela Belford (08:50)
you waited until I was all the way done before you finally decided you wanted to improve. And and I said, Look, you’ve done this over and over again where you’re you’ll do something for ninety days and then and then we’ll go back to the status quo. And I’ve had it. I’ve had it. And there may be people listening that are like, my gosh, I’m there. They’ll they’ll we’ll have a big fight in ninety days, they’ll hold it together and then

And so I told him, I said, I don’t want to hear anything for four months. I said, after four months of therapy, if you are still on track, I will listen to your stories. But you call somebody else, find a friend, I don’t care. And here’s what happened: is that after four months, I looked at him, my gosh, you’re still doing it. You finally like did this for me. And he started laughing. He laughed in my face. And he said, I didn’t do it for you. Every other time.

I did it for you. This time I did it for me. I

Sami Kinnison (09:46)
Mm.

Angela Belford (09:47)
did it for me. And I was like, okay. Which is also like we got, I know we’re 10 minutes in. It feels like we hadn’t started with the lessons, but I hope you’re hearing the lessons that we’re dropping here, which is number one, you can’t force somebody to change no matter how many ultimatums you give. Number two, people have to change because they want to. And number three, it wasn’t overnight.

And even four months later it was not perfect. That’s not the purpose of the story. But anyway.

Sami Kinnison (10:17)
I think

the we had an episode where we talked a little bit about the let them theory that Mel Robbins has written a

Angela Belford (10:23)
Yes.

Sami Kinnison (10:23)
book about. And there is an element that you’ve got to the the part of it let them, let them do this, let them be how they’re gonna be. The second part that is not as like catchy is that you have to let me as well. What am I going to do in that time? And that’s really what this episode is, is is meant to be. So then when you’re letting them, what are you gonna do?

In the meantime, how do you approach that? And so the question is when, and and I don’t know that we have a clear answer to this, but like when do you decide to trust, decide to hang on to say like I like what you said, I see that you are willing to change, you I’m willing to stick with broken, I’m not willing to stick with denial, like that part of it.

Angela Belford (11:09)
So I what I would say I

don’t have answers, I have questions.

Sami Kinnison (11:13)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Belford (11:14)
what I think and I think at this at this moment, a great coach is gonna give you great questions. And some of the times I do have to guide my clients but and and offer them a fresh thought. But in this scenario, I’m going to say that the questions are the most important thing. And the first question I would ask is

If this behavior continues, where are we gonna end up? Like what’s our trajectory? If I fast forward, you know, I’m fifty two two three. Fifty

Sami Kinnison (11:41)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Belford (11:42)
three now.

Sami Kinnison (11:46)
Feels like a classic thing for a fifty three year old to say.

Angela Belford (11:49)
Like what year is it? anyway, okay, so if I’m fifty three and I think about sixty year old me, what is sixty year old me gonna be dealing with? And so because

Sami Kinnison (12:04)
My gosh, that’s only seven years from now. Sorry. Keep going.

Angela Belford (12:06)
I know.

because my when my husband was unwilling to change, then I could fast forward seven years and go, We’ve been having the same fight for seven years. We’re probably gonna keep having the same fight for seven more years. So that trajectory is not a trajectory I’m willing to, that’s not where I want to go. However, once he decided that he wanted to change for him, then

I have now a different trajectory. There is a different future version of myself and my husband. Here’s what’s so crazy about this is that five months into this process, he got glasses for the first time. And it bothered him so much because he went into the doctor finally and because he was having headaches and he had to get

bifocals, he hit was near sided, far sided, and had astigmatism and had never had glasses. And I’m like, this is actually a great metaphor for your denial of all of your problems. Anyway, and so it it bothered him that he had glasses for the first time. He’s like, my gosh, I feel old. And I I had to tell him I’m like, it’s actually helpful to me because you look different and that helps remind my brain that you are trying to be different.

Sami Kinnison (13:27)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Belford (13:28)
And it was really interesting the physicality and how that helped both of us think about look, you can now see more clearly. And

Sami Kinnison (13:38)
Yeah.

Angela Belford (13:38)
and we use glasses. There’s there’s a reason we use glasses as a metaphor when we talk about the growth that we’re doing. And so the first question I would ask you is, you know, should I stay or should I go? Is what’s the trajectory of this? Where are you going to end up? Where is

it likely you’re going to end up?

Sami Kinnison (13:52)
I

think that if I could offer maybe a second question or an interchangeable first question,

Angela Belford (13:59)
Yeah, yeah.

Sami Kinnison (14:01)
is my least favorite question to ask or to like have to figure out the answer to. it’s what do you want?

I just like it’s feels like such a simple question, and it always, not always, it often like actually causes more trip-ups than we realize. And I think

Angela Belford (14:19)
Well, what I will

tell you in that moment of crisis, it is excruciatingly difficult to figure out what you want. But I’ll tell

Sami Kinnison (14:26)
Right.

Angela Belford (14:26)
you what is an easier question to answer is what you don’t want. Which is a way to

Sami Kinnison (14:30)
Right. What do you not want?

Angela Belford (14:32)
answer the what do you want. And so

Sami Kinnison (14:34)
Yeah.

Angela Belford (14:35)
because so often if we’ve been swimming in this water, we can’t imagine something different.

Sami Kinnison (14:40)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Belford (14:41)
But we can say, I don’t want to be dismissed. I don’t want to feel emotionally unsafe in my home. I don’t want

to feel like I am being told that it’s all my fault and that I’m the only one that has a problem, those are the things I don’t want. So

Sami Kinnison (14:58)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Belford (14:59)
I hear you. And in those moments of crisis, it’s very difficult to figure out what to and those are answers actually, those do answer, just for encouragement, those do answer the what you want.

Sami Kinnison (15:11)
Right, because I think that even knowing I don’t want this to continue, an exercise I use in my team building workshops a lot will be a start, stop, continue. So we’ll use a stoplight.

Angela Belford (15:23)
Yes.

Sami Kinnison (15:24)
And it is the what are the things that need to start, what are the things that need to stop, and what are the things that you want to continue. Yes, like, you know, workshoppy, team buildingly as it sounds, it still is a helpful like framework to think about. If you don’t know

How to answer the question, what do you want? Are there things that you want to start that you’re like, no, I need things to go this way? There are things I definitively want to stop. And there are some things that are good that I want to continue. And being able to, that’s a different framework of

Angela Belford (15:52)
That’s a good call. Yep.

Sami Kinnison (15:54)
to approach the question. But I still think at the end of the day, like it falls into that bucket of what do you actually want? I think that it is very interesting. The more I’m getting into this work.

How often people feel like what they want doesn’t matter.

Angela Belford (16:13)
Mm yes.

Sami Kinnison (16:14)
it what they want doesn’t matter. And they’re like, my opinion on this doesn’t matter. It’s it’s irrelevant what my actual desires are. I know moms who face this with their kids. I know people at work who are facing this. They’re like, well, what I want in my job and in my work environment doesn’t actually matter. And I’m like, I this is.

I I don’t have an answer yet. I’m I’m it I’m in the middle of this, just seeing it everywhere. And I want to call attention to it because I think that if you if somebody said to you, you have a best friend that’s like, Yeah, what I want doesn’t matter. Our gut instinct is to be like, What are talking about? Of course what you want matters. Of course that’s a big deal. Of course the things that are on your heart are important. And yet, like this seems to be much harder to reflect towards yourself.

Than it is to give to others. And I that’s so much of what we do is like how if you wouldn’t treat your friends the way that you’re treating yourself, stop treating yourself that way. And that in particular, this whole area, what you want actually does matter. It is, it is super important. I think, even from a faith perspective, my approach these days is that like, I feel like God is asking me, what do you want? We can be co-creators.

Ask and you shall receive. There are so much where like, no, it it really does matter to ask that question and to explore what comes up. I don’t think it matters as much to have a clear definitive answer. I think

Angela Belford (17:45)
Yeah, sure.

Sami Kinnison (17:46)
it matters to be willing to ask the question and

Angela Belford (17:48)
Hundred percent.

Sami Kinnison (17:50)
engage in that thought. So when it comes to these relationships,

Angela Belford (17:52)
Yeah. Yeah.

Sami Kinnison (17:55)
what do you want? Is the person that you’re having the conversation with

I

think there’s a lot of friendships that like friendships and and lighter relationships, it feels easier to be like, cool, I think we’re gonna release, you know, people are friends for a reason, a season, whatever,

Angela Belford (18:13)
For a lifetime.

Sami Kinnison (18:13)
or a lifetime. Yes, and sometimes you run people are friends for a season and that’s okay. I think it’s so much harder when you have larger entanglements, such as a marriage contract or a business agreement, or you know.

When the law is involved, it’s a little bit harder to just say like I’m

Angela Belford (18:31)
Yeah.

Sami Kinnison (18:31)
out.

Angela Belford (18:32)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s a great caveat to the different differential.

So once you’ve figured out what you want, is the trajectory of where we’re going getting you closer or farther away from what you want because it’s not a straight line, there’s going to be a period of time where let’s let’s say best case scenario, which I got to the point where

You know, Barry said, I do want to go on this journey.

There is years, usually, years and years of of patterns of behavior and

my experience with change and I think we got a whole episode about this, we should look it up, but the

When you try to change a habit, first you’re unaware of what the habit is that you is that somebody has to point it out. Did you know you even did this thing? Did you know you invalidated my feelings? No, I didn’t. And then then somebody invalidates their feelings and they recognize it in themselves. Maybe the next day they’re like, wow, wow, wow, I I did this thing. Maybe they recognize it a couple days later. And then they recognize it eight hours later. And then two hours later.

And when you are on the receiving end of them continuing to invalidate your behavior or your feelings when they have said they won’t do it, this is the time when you need the most patience. Because for you, you have been putting up with this offense, this pattern of their behavior for a long time. And sometimes what’s hard is that you’ve just become aware of it and now you’ve seen all the thousands of times. And so

And and as they get to the point where they like figure out as they’re invalidating, they start to invalidate your feelings and they go, wait, wait, wait, hold on. And then they get to the point where they don’t even aren’t even tempted to invalidate your feelings. That period of time requires so much patience and so much trust and so much repair work that it is

I think it is the most detrimental, which is why it’s I think it the important thing is to know are we headed in the right direction? And so there were times during that period and and since I can remember the like fast forward about eight eight or nine years, and I’m like, Well, of course you don’t care to change because it hurts me. Yeah, that’s never been a motivator for you. That became something that like was this touchstone for him that then later became a

ammunition for me that I’m like I still don’t matter that much to you because you’re never gonna you’re never going to prioritize my needs over your own. Like my

Sami Kinnison (21:32)
No.

Angela Belford (21:33)
needs are gonna be prioritized to the extent that it doesn’t cause you discomfort or you to address your own fear. As long as you don’t have to address discomfort or fear, you are all about my needs. All about it, all about it, all about it. In all the ways that you want to meet my needs a hundred percent. And so you then

What’s hard is that he wanted double credit for meeting my needs in the way he wanted to meet my needs, but in the ways that I asked him to meet my needs, I was giving him triple negative points, almost invalidating the I’m like, quit doing the stuff that I didn’t ask you to do. I didn’t ask you to make my lunch every day. I didn’t ask you to make sure that there’s gas in the car. I didn’t ask you for all of those things. And I’m never gonna give you credit for them.

As long as you’re doing these things that are important to me. And so that gets really hard and sticky. And that’s

Sami Kinnison (22:32)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Belford (22:33)
a whole probably an advanced topic, but I just want to encourage people that I want you to notice the patterns that that are happening. And are the patterns is that cycle between when they do the thing you’ve asked them.

and they recognize they did it, is that getting shorter? Because if it is, hang in there a little while longer.

Sami Kinnison (22:59)
Right. And that that time period I think is where the growth happens. I think it’s also where people give up most

Angela Belford (23:02)
Yeah. Yeah.

Sami Kinnison (23:05)
often. I think it’s where they say, What’s the point of trying? It’s still no matter how hard I try, it’s still not enough. And and it it it’s it is rife with hurt and and mistrust and and all sorts of things. And that is where the growth is happening. And yeah, it and I think that there could be times

To

say this there there might be an appropriate time to be like, maybe there needs to be a relationship break and you need to work on this separately, particularly if it is extra harmful. I don’t I’m not a marriage therapist and I am not we’re not giving like specific advice on any specific situation, but I think that knowing being able to stop and recognize is it seems like the thing keeps happening.

Is there growth in that process or is there not? Because if there can still be like I’m fighting better, they’re not, they’re they’re trying more, they’re willing to apologize for what they’ve done. And then there’s also too far to be like, gosh, now it’s been like a year and a half, and we’re still here. We’re still not making a

Angela Belford (24:11)
Yeah. Yeah, too little, too late. Yeah.

Sami Kinnison (24:14)
change. like we’re we’re trying to make a change, but we’re not trying that hard to make a change. To which still comes back to what are you going to do? Because I think that boundaries.

gets a bad rap, people people think boundaries is like, well, I’m not gonna let you do this thing. But really a boundary is if you do this thing, this is how I will respond. It is knowing and understanding what will your response and actions be if this particular behavior or thing continues or persists. Because we can’t force other people to do anything. We

Angela Belford (24:51)
That’s right.

Sami Kinnison (24:51)
we can incentivize, but

Angela Belford (24:53)
Ha ha ha

Sami Kinnison (24:54)
we can’t force.

And so figuring out how to honor yourself in that process is really difficult. It is not an easy cut and dry thing. So

This feels like one of those messy middle episodes. We’ll put it on the

Angela Belford (25:09)
Hmm. Even though I’m telling

a thirteen year old story, it’s still there’s not.

Sami Kinnison (25:15)
It’s still there’s not clear answers, but I hope

that what you could get from this is understanding that you’re not alone and some questions to ask if this is the situation that you’re facing or in, or some questions that you can help a friend. If you have somebody else that you know who is in this kind of situation, you also can’t force them to leave an unhealthy marriage or whatever, but you can help ask some questions and offer some perspective that

Maybe it can help shift the way that they’re thinking about things. So

Angela Belford (25:46)
I will

say one more thing about the taking a break, and that is that often that is a good idea. I’ve had friendships where like we just kind of took a break accidentally or on purpose for nine months or to a year, and it gave time for the healing to gel, it gave time for the like wounds to settle down, it gave time for us to like see other situations, and it really can make a big difference. And it’s interesting because I’ve been reading articles about like the number one recruiting.

method right now is to actually recruit former employees. it’s like cultivate relationships with your alumni employees. And the idea is that maybe even the organization has grown. Maybe like if you’ve if if you left an organization because it was unhealthy at a work situation, maybe going somewhere else for a few years and then it may be that you come back. Now you may not have to. But anyway, there are scenarios where

I mean golly, I’ve ha I know a lot of people that are married after they divorced. And so, you know, like that don’t don’t eliminate that just because it’s a break, it’s a forever break. Life’s long.

Sami Kinnison (26:59)
I also think especially with friendships, if you you do not have to formally break up with all of your friendships.

Angela Belford (27:04)
That’s right.

Sami Kinnison (27:05)
Like honestly, stop. Stop doing it. Let things

Angela Belford (27:09)
Just let things settle down for a little while. Slow roll text replies or or don’t.

Sami Kinnison (27:10)
Let things settle, just you know, don’t initiate a text and Yeah, it’s f like there are

ways you don’t have to formally we’re breaking up as a friend and burning the bridges. Like, no, what if you just let the bridge get dusty for a while? You don’t have to burn

Angela Belford (27:24)
Yeah.

Sami Kinnison (27:25)
it down.

Angela Belford (27:25)
A hundred percent. Yeah.

Sami Kinnison (27:27)
Thanks everybody for listening. If you have thoughts, questions, pushback, whatever it is, we want to hear it. You can send us a text message.

Angela Belford (27:34)
Mm-hmm.

Sami Kinnison (27:35)
You can email us, message us anywhere you find us on social media. We would love to hear from you guys. You guys are so fun whenever we get to engage the conversation, more than just the two of us on the microphone. So thank you so much for being here and being on your journeys. We hope you guys have a great week. And until next time, go be freaking awesome.