Sami Kinnison (00:00)
Welcome everyone to today’s episode of the podcast. I’m one of your hosts, Sami Kinnison. I’m a communication coach who helps people say what they need to say.

Angela Belford (00:09)
Angela Belford and I’m an executive coach who helps people get what they want.

Sami Kinnison (00:15)
We are a mother-daughter duo who are seeking to help answer the question what does it take to live a freaking awesome life? Angela, you put today’s podcast topic in our idea document a while ago. And for a moment I was like, this is gonna be a boring episode. The what she put in the document for everyone else is she put the question, is people pleasing all bad? And in my head, the episode is gonna go, is people pleasing all bad? Yes.

Thanks everyone for listening. Have a great rest of your week. like that’s it. Moving on. I don’t know. I feel like it is all bad, but maybe it’s not. I don’t know. What what are your tell me more about where you’re coming from and wanting to pose pose this question.

Angela Belford (01:02)
Yeah, so this a lot of this relates back to last week’s episode on standard of excellence and you know the idea of motivation the root word is motive so what is our reason for doing things I find it fascinating that

Like the definition of being codependent, when they list the behaviors of being codependent, they’re the same behavior, some of the same behaviors of being a good friend, a good family member, a good whatever. But all of it is related to the motive. Like, and so codependency is that you’re doing these things for the purpose of

earning something, earning love, earning attention, earning favor. Somebody’s gonna owe me a favor, sort of thing. And so the

I can do the exact same things with the motive of showing love, just for the purpose of showing love, and it will be not bad and not unhealthy. I mean, we we our shorthand around here is pizza and beer. Sometimes I can I can eat pizza and drink a beer because I’m that sounds good to me.

And other times I drink a beer because I’m so stressed out and I’m using that as the coping tool and then I overuse it and right and I’m turning to something besides my faith to alleviate my pain. And so I think the the the hot take on is people pleasing bad is related to I think that there’s times where it’s it’s a little bit like being on a very unsteady surface because

I have a friend who’s planning a celebration for her parent, one of her parents’ big birthdays. She wants to plan the celebration. Now her parent is putting extra parameters on the how it’s done. So my friend is like, I want to celebrate my parent for they’re gonna be 90 years old. I want to celebrate them.

parent wants, I want a book, I want everybody to tell a story, I want everybody to come here, I want it to be this, I want it to be that, I want to. And and it’s like that’s when this came up is like, but wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Is is that bad? And so we’re wrestling with this idea of like, well, if I want to celebrate that parent, then

shouldn’t shouldn’t see already my brain like it makes sense that I would want to celebrate them in a way that they feel celebrated, that they feel loved, but they’re asking for things that are not what I feel comfortable, equipped, resourced, capacity

Sami Kinnison (04:17)
Have the capacity for.

Angela Belford (04:19)
to that’s not what I signed up for. I wanted to have a fun party and I wanted to invite our relatives that are even out of state.

But now you’re asking me to do a six-month book project and trying to convince my twenty-something nieces and nephews and sibl children to like write a story that they remember about the grandparent. And it’s like, that’s just too much. But then it’s like, but wait and so it’s just this angstiness. And so every time we hang out, I’m like, ooh, so how’s the party coming together? Right. And because it’s such a like a

It it just is messy and life is messy. And sometimes when people talk about boundaries, they they talk about it so clear-cut. You just hold the boundary. And it’s like, it’s not that simple. It’s just not that simple sometimes. you make it. So anyway, that’s why I wanted to talk about it, is because I’m like there my my friend is going to

sacrifice some of her comfort because she’s choosing to do this thing in a way that actually makes her parent feel loved. And it’s gonna be a little outside her comfort zone. Some of it’s gonna be a lot outside of her capacity. And and it’s not clear cut people pleasing.

Sami Kinnison (05:48)
Hmm.

Angela Belford (05:49)
You know what I mean? Because she’s like, but part of this was my idea.

And so then how do you navigate boundaries in that? And how can you say it clearly and say, wow, that sounds like a great idea. That is not something I can take on. Like my friend did say, I’m not cooking for this. I cooked for the last party that we had. We’re hiring a caterer. Period. Hard stop. This is what I want us to have good food. I’m not willing to do it. I’ll cook a pie. But besides that, we’re having it catered.

Sami Kinnison (06:22)
That makes sense.

Angela Belford (06:22)
And so

right. And so she’s having to like literally navigate every single decision. I think this comes up when people are planning their kids’ wedding. That where it’s like, when do I get to say no? And when do I like but they they have dreams about their wedding and I have dreams about their wedding. And so I think this this whole thing and maybe it’s just the season that I’m in where we’re, you know, where I’m parenting ad parenting adult children.

Where I’m navigating relationships with my adult children because I’m not parenting them. That’s not it. But I’m being a parent to another adult. And so there’s different like relationships and then people that are that are being children to other adults. So anyway, that’s where this comes up. And I don’t think it’s cut and dry.

Sami Kinnison (07:08)
So I think what it sounds like you’re saying or offering, if I could contrarian a little bit and offer that, I don’t actually

Angela Belford (07:18)
I I hope so.

Sami Kinnison (07:19)
know that we’re talking about people pleasing. I think that maybe we are in the realm and we are in the like people pleasing is in the room with us, but it’s not necessarily the the same thing when I want to offer something to somebody and then they like.

If you give a mouse a cookie kind of concept, and then they keep going and going, there’s so much that if I could like take a step back.

What

I think people pleasing is, is more in that, like you were describing, the codependency and the motive behind things. If that motive is not there, I don’t know that it’s people pleasing. I think that doing nice things for other people is not people pleasing. I think that wanting to show up for others, and so maybe this is just truly a case of nuance, and that I would say that it is.

a different thing and figuring out I think your friend’s situation in particular is very poignant to say, I want to throw you a party. Now the the ask has gotten much bigger than the original offer. How do you navigate that? That is a really good question. is it from a place of people pleasing? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe some of the pieces of it are people pleasing. I don’t know.

Angela Belford (08:40)
And it may be because you’re if you’re recovering people pleaser, then it is

Sami Kinnison (08:45)
I definitely

think that that you’re then prompted and tempted. It’s like, you know, you’ve been a you know alcohol

Angela Belford (08:50)
Yes. Yep.

Sami Kinnison (08:52)
free for a long time, and somebody puts a nice cold beer right in front of you, and you gotta be like, ooh, what am I gonna do with that one? So I think that’s fair. I also think that there are times where I might be more agreeable and and

And let things go that normally would bother me that I would also put not in the people-pleasing category. But it’s a it’s not worth my battles kind of situation. And so I have to articulate for folks at home who think that both Angela and I always share a hundred percent of our life stories and we’re completely vulnerable and open on everything. Sometimes I like to remind you guys, like, actually there are plenty of things that I’m

Not sure that I’m comfortable talking about on the internet, or there are like current moments happening with people in our lives around us that we’re like, no, we’re gonna be a little bit more sensitive to that. and I’ve got one of those that’s kind of going on for me. There is a lot of like releasing of being like, fine, I’m not, I am not so tied to the way that I want.

These things to happen. It is frustrating to me, some of the situation. It is difficult. It could look like people pleasing from the outside. And I think on the inside, for me, it is truly just a, it’s not worth my energy and my bandwidth to continue to fight with this person than it is to just let them do their thing. Especially because what they’re asking of me doesn’t require more work. It requires getting to do something somebody else’s way versus my way.

Fine, let’s do it your way. And so it is curious though, because somebody else might be like, Sami, you’re just people pleasing and you’re like giving in to whatever they want. And I’m like, I mean, maybe I am. Maybe I am just giving in to what they want, but I’m actually not doing it because for them to like me. it has nothing to do with whether they like me or not. It has everything to do with what am I willing to put up with and what am I willing to accept as as treatment and

It’s

really hard to talk about a situation vaguely. I so prefer whenever we just like, Yep, let me unpack and unload the whole thing, process it with you all.

Angela Belford (11:12)
One of the things I like about what you’re what you’re saying there is that you actually can agree on the end result. And in both the scenarios that you set up and I set up, it’s the how that really was the

Sami Kinnison (11:26)
It is the how the

Angela Belford (11:27)
the struggle, which actually can apply to politics, religion, lots of other things, is like, wait, wait, wait, but we have the end goal is the same. one of the things that I want to articulate the difference between people.

what kind of what people pleasing I think at its root is the motive is fear. Like I’m afraid. If I don’t please you, then I’m either going to be rejected. Many of us grew up in especially if you have any kind of alcoholism in your family, you know that if someone gets mad, it’s scary. It’s very scary like this person. So you have to

And this is where the fawn reflex, you know, we’ve talked about fight, flight, or fear and some of the newer ones that are coming out is is fawn and it’s like I want to I want to take care of you. I want you to feel really good because when you feel really good, you’re not yelling at me and screaming at me and making me feel like I’m gonna lose my home, my relationship, my all of these things, your love. And so there’s so much of it is like what is driving it, and if it’s out of generosity, then that is a choice.

Right. And so then it’s not people pleasing, it’s choice.

Sami Kinnison (12:40)
I think there’s also

it takes a lot of self-awareness because somebody can say, No, I’m not being driven by fear when I want when I’m being codependent. Like I’m motivated to seek love. I’m seeking love. Isn’t this that’s not fear? That’s just

Angela Belford (12:55)
Look, there’s a Bible verse

that says consider others better than yourself.

Sami Kinnison (13:00)
Right. And and it takes I think it takes an incredible amount of self-awareness and

Angela Belford (13:05)
It does.

Sami Kinnison (13:05)
frankly courage to acknowledge that it is fear driving the behavior. Because once you I feel like sometimes once you say something like that out loud, you’re like, gosh dang it, I don’t want fear to be my behavior driver. At least for me. I when I get to that point where I’m like, I realize that the way the reason I’ve been doing something is not a reason

Angela Belford (13:27)
Yeah.

Sami Kinnison (13:27)
that I actually

aligns with my

Angela Belford (13:29)
Yeah.

Sami Kinnison (13:29)
values and who I wanna be, that stinks. It would be so much easier if I could pretend this was altruistic and stay in my little fantasy that I’m I’m doing good things.

Angela Belford (13:39)
Well, and one of the ways that you can kind of measure that, kind of increase your self awareness, is notice the cost. Like when you do this thing for someone else, d does it fill you up full of joy? And does it fill you up full of like, warm, yummy feelings of generosity? Like, I’m so glad I was able to be generous. Or does it begin is it breeding resentment? Because if you may not be able to identify

Sami Kinnison (14:05)
Yeah.

Angela Belford (14:06)
that fear is pushing you.

But you may notice the resentment and that you’re getting grumpy about doing the thing that they ask you to do and grumbly. I recently had to say to somebody, hey, I volunteered to like think about this thing or like give some guidance and you are telling me, you are voluntelling me what I what that looks like. And then you are trying to hold me accountable for not doing the thing that you said I would do, but I never I never agreed to do that thing and volunteered to do that thing. And so

Luckily with that one I was able to cleanly go No problem whatsoever. in other scenarios I do get to start feeling resentment and grumpy about it.

Sami Kinnison (14:49)
This

makes me think about Christmas time specifically and like the holidays because there is so much that I do want to do. I want to spend time.

with all of my family around the holidays. My my immediate nuclear family, my extended family, my husband’s family, like all I want to do that. I want my kids to have a magical Christmas morning. I want to have a time where I get to like sit back and marvel and revel and feel awe at the lights and all the decoration and things. And

It can get too much and it can go from it can very quickly go from this is what I wanted to I’m more of me is being asked than what I had available to offer. And I think that in particular, like it it does not necessarily like huge obvious moments. It can be

small and it can be just one thing pushed too far and it can be understanding, okay, if I want my kids to have a ma quote magical Christmas morning, probably means I’m gonna need to go buy them some presents or or you know figure out something for them to open. I’m gonna have to plan a little bit, what do they like, what do they not like? I’m gonna have to shop in advance. I’m gonna have to wrap it. I’m gonna have to like do all of those things. Set aside the budget because I want that to happen. Each one of those, when I can tie it to the why

can be very easy, but I also can go too much and be like, I think I I have articulated at times when I was still on staff with the Belford group, I would ask, are we, you know, if we spent four hours on a project and three hours brought us 80% of the way there and the last hour only improved the project by about five to ten percent, that last hour was not as worth it as the first three hours. Even though the pro you know it’s 80%

To perfection, sometimes we do that. We add on the things. Maybe it’s because somebody specifically asked us to, maybe it’s because we feel some pressure to our kids, to our families, to society, that this is the way we have to do it. Did it actually add that much more value to the work that you put in? And so I think when you’re trying to figure out, am I willing to do this? You know, the person whose mom wants her to throw the party like.

I want to I want all of my friends to be invited to this as well, not just my family. And so it’s going to be more people. Inviting friends, not just family, like, yeah, I’m willing to add that on. That’s not that much of an extra ask, and that makes sense. I want to do a a book that’s six months of people writing stories that then gets found and delivered to me at the party. Yeah, that’s a lot more of an ask. And figuring out, like you can weigh, yes, I’m willing to go more than.

But

I’m comfortable at the end of the day with what I have offered. And I know for myself at the holiday time, like I and will probably be overextended. And I know that January is going to be a very like recovery and reset month for us because we’re just in a season with really small kids and lots of family. Like, this sounds horrible.

We have a lot of family that is still living, and that’s a beautiful, amazing thing. You know how many times how many extra visits that adds to my like Christmas week? Because everybody is still around. And I’m grateful. I’m grateful. I’m grateful. I have to remind myself I am grateful of this. but also it does add cost. And so figuring out what are you willing to tolerate and what are you not willing to tolerate with your own self.

I think makes a huge difference.

Angela Belford (18:36)
Yeah, I think that to help figure out the difference in real time, it’s a very good idea to say, Let me check and get back to you. Whenever people ask, I’ll be like, let me check my calendar and see. I had somebody this week ask and I said, You know, you’re asking for lunch. That’s hard. That’s a big ask for me. If you allow me to meet with you at because of where I work on the days, I’m like if if

And they wanted me to come to them. I’m like, if you will allow me to do that at the beginning of the day or at the end of the day, that is a much smaller ask. And so it’s just I I’m not gonna be able to prioritize that. And they were so grateful. Thank you for telling us that. my gosh, yes, we want to be we want to be a partner, so we want to be collaborative. And so I was able to say, and then I said, Let me get to my place. I still have to text them the date that I’m available, but but allowing that to be okay.

You know, and not having to say yes. There was someone else that I was like, yes. I I will say to people often, if you want to meet with me on Teams or Zoom, then I can make that happen next week. But if you need an in-person meeting, you’re probably gonna be two to three weeks out. It’s just a bigger ask. And so that’s just a tiny yup.

Sami Kinnison (19:53)
On the let me check and get back

to you, I also will often say things like, I need to check with Chris, I need to check with my husband. Sometimes that can be quote toxic if I have to get permission to do anything from my husband, like that was most an ideal.

My husband looks out for me. He well, number one, he travels for work, but he

Angela Belford (20:15)
But travels for her? Yeah.

Sami Kinnison (20:19)
also looks out for me. And he’s like, Are you sure you want to add one more thing to your plate, Sami? Like,

Angela Belford (20:23)
Yes, yes.

Sami Kinnison (20:26)
are and what’s so nice is that he knows me so well that he there are certain things where I’m like, hey, I was asked to do this thing. And he’s like, my gosh, that’s something you would love to do. Oof, that’ll be a little bit tricky for us to figure out. Let’s see what we can rearrange to make that happen.

For example, I got asked to be a leader for a women’s retreat that our church is hosting. And so I will be gone for three days on a weekend in October. Kind of like a busy time of life to be gone for three days. And his immediate response was, my gosh, what an honor. That’s so cool. We will figure it out and make it happen. I know that’s something he would want to add to your plate. There are other things people ask me to do that he’s like,

Are you sure? What’s the value? Tell me more about that. And even just his hesitation is enough for me to say, like, yeah, is this worthwhile or not? He knows me very well and we have a good partnership in that. And so the let me check helps me to run it by somebody else when

often just default to, yeah, that sounds fun, let’s do it. And then it’s like, that’s gonna be a big deal. Ooh, maybe not. So there’s that. I also think sometimes it’s helpful to consider. If somebody else was asking you this thing, how would you respond? So if it’s a person you feel really sensitive to and you don’t want to tell them no, that’s interesting. So that’s a flag, an indicator light as we would say. But if there was a different person asking you for this thing, would your response change?

For some people, this is a good thing for me. And for some people, it’s not a good thing. I have some people in my life, if this person was to ask me for something, they give so much, I’m gonna figure out how to make it work. Like, I I I would relish the opportunity to give back to them a favor that they have done for me over and over again. And then there’s other people that I’m like, ugh, I just don’t want to deal with them if I say no. Indicator lights. That’s what these are, they’re indicator lights.

To notice and see, mmm, curious. What do you want to do with that?

Angela Belford (22:32)
Yeah.

Yeah. At the end of the day, I think that the most important thing is not to stop caring. It’s not to just automatically want, say no to everything, is really to have grace. And sometimes you’re going to say yes and then regret it. there are times when I’ve said yes, like, this is something I really want to do, and then I go

It turns out I’ve been out every single night this week until after eight o’clock. And so I don’t really want to do this thing. That doesn’t mean I should always say no, but I just have to have some grace with myself and with the people that are making the ask. The other thing is to just try really hard because if five people in a row have asked me for something, it’s not really fair to the sixth person to like

blow up on them. So I try really hard to be aware of like this is the first thing that person has asked me. And so and people all the time say about to me, like, you’re so busy, you’re so busy. I’m like, I’m gonna fill my calendar. Guess what? I can you can look back on 10 years of my calendar, 12, 15 years of my calendar, and it’s gonna be full. Always. If it’s not full of something, I’m gonna fill it full of something. I’m gonna be learning something, practicing something. I keep getting the itch to start my fourth book. And I’m like, you should probably like

Go do some more promotion of your third book. How about it? Because it turns out I love I love the process when I’m not doing it. I have this fan

Sami Kinnison (24:05)
I was like, wow, that’s bold.

Angela Belford (24:07)
I have this fantasy of like, ooh, I’d like to have something to think about. Like, no, the silly girl. Silly silly gal.

Sami Kinnison (24:17)
what is it? childbirth the most forgettable pain. Is is book writing the second most forgettable pain?

Angela Belford (24:19)
Yes. Yeah, yeah, probably. Well,

and probably because right now I do need to be promoting the the Invisible Edge and also the new master class that is coming out here in just in September. And so it’s probably my little procrastination, productive procrastination, which is one of my favorite little

Sami Kinnison (24:40)
Mm.

Angela Belford (24:42)
coping skills. Like, no, no, no. Even though that sounds really productive, you have work to do.

Sami Kinnison (24:49)
Totally fair. I understand those a lot. Thank you all for listening. I would love to invite you guys if you have stories to share, things you need to unload, a moment you need to be like, dang it, maybe I let myself down, or ooh, I’m really proud of how I said no or navigated this one. You can actually send us a text message. If you go to the show notes on any of your podcast players, there should be a little button that says send us a text, and you can click that.

And we would love to hear from you and hear your stories, hear what you have to say. Thank you guys so much for listening, and we are so grateful for each and every one of you being on the journey with us. Until next time, we hope you guys go be freaking awesome.